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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Oct 9, 2012 12:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Looking for some political fire

Now De Niro, I said I wouldn't get involved in this cycle's cluster fest, but when the rats start jumping ship it can be fun to see what happens. I know the forum didn't ask for a glass of water, but here is some gasoline instead - just for kicks.

I have to say I'm surprised that Andrew Sullivan is still alive. After he bragged many a time about having 50 million partners a year I imagined the horse sized ... antibiotics (what else were you thinking?) he had to consume to stay alive. But I digress.

So Andrew, wobbly, with his which side am I on expression, had a major melt down over the Presidents debate performance, or apparent lack thereof, and the subsequent polling reflecting this, specifically the Pew poll (which used to be biased pro D. and may still be, I don't know). Andrew wants to be the President's Viagra.

http://tinyurl.com/8en3pok

The right has this up on their sites above the fold. I think Drudge is masturbating right now over in his little cave. The left is beating the we-told-you-so-he's-really-a-traitor drums (found only in specialty shops). Flamboyance was a trademark of young Andrew and may be of middle-aged Andrew as well. A self described conservative who consistently spouts almost every lefty talking point. He probably wants sources in whatever Republicrat administration is in power. At least he is getting the attention he craves and yet is still not nearly as creepy as David Brock (but gaining).

Here is a poll Andrew ought to have considered if he had a genuine feeling instead of a look-at-me tantrum.

http://tinyurl.com/42zees3

Who really knows? I certainly don't. Except that the race is tightening (duh) as we reach the last days of the campaign. Here's to some more good rat jumping. I wonder in the end who will pull out all the stops? The boys in Chicago or the boys in Salt Lake City? That's a race tightening somewhere down below.

Back in reality concerning news,

http://tinyurl.com/922gj8t

These folks should be first in line for what is owed to them (then we can get back to the trough). Seems like we can send them to the wars easier than we can bind their wounds.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffMonte B Cowboy Date: Oct 9, 2012 9:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

Re: major melt down over the Presidents debate

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2012/10/4/expanding_the_debate_watch_democracy_nows_full_three_hour_special

As President Barack Obama and Republican nominee Mitt Romney squared off in their first debate, Democracy Now! produced a three-hour special, Expanding the Debate. We aired the Obama/Romney debate and paused after questions to include responses from two presidential contenders who were shut out of the official debate: Jill Stein of the Green Party and Rocky Anderson of the Justice Party.

The special broadcast also featured interviews with George Farah, founder and executive director of Open Debates, about how the Republican and Democratic parties secretly control the presidential debates; Vincent Harding, friend, colleague and former speechwriter of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.; and Miriam Peña, executive director of the Colorado Progressive Coalition.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Oct 9, 2012 9:43am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

Would love to see Gary Johnson added to this.

Until then, I hope the Democrat and Republican supporters never tire of their endless debasement of the economy and currency or the endless wars to sustain it.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Oct 9, 2012 9:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

Gary Johnson is on record saying that he actually supports the illegal drone wars that you are so upset about, by the way (or at least that he won't take them off the table). Whatever Gary. I can't wait until President Johnson takes us to war in Uganda. Uganda! Sounds like a foreign policy vision we can all get behind.

In other words, he is totally unprepared to be president.

http://antiwar.com/blog/2012/04/12/gary-johnson-libertarian-candidate-is-out-of-his-element/

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Oct 9, 2012 10:21am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

Be interesting to see what he's learned since April. Maybe nothing....but I'll bet he'd at least follow the Constitution and not violate the War Powers Act.

Obama either doesn't understand the Constitutional constraints on the Executive Branch or chooses to ignore them. That's an unforgivable sin in my book.

Romney is just clueless.

Neither understand that the uncontrolled Congressional spending and national debt is going to kick our ass much sooner than fucking around in Uganda. They argue in the margins about miniscule cuts to programs to eliminate billions of dollars over several years, yet blink stupidly like owls in bright light when they are reminded that the interest alone on the debt every year is over $450 BILLION.

"My plan saves 100 billion over 10 years.......blah, blah, blah........"

What the fuck is going to happen to all the pet projects and special interests when the fiat dollar collapses? When program funding goes to zero. That's the beauty of all of this. These morons in DC can't lean forward far enough to see that their ireesponsibility and petty infighting is going to hurt a lot of people very badly when this system inverts. System reset anyone? Bad news all around.

Shitty bet when faced with choosing between a dangerous known or a clueless unknown.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Oct 9, 2012 11:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

That's all well and good, but I would add Gary Johnson to the "clueless unknown" category -- not to mention the "I will never have a governing majority" category.

If a third party ever wants a shot, someone will need to find a decent candidate to field -- someone who seems ready to be president. I'm all in favor of stopping the Joseph Kony's of the world, but really, who isn't? There are much tougher foreign policy questions out there -- ones without clear answers. Sorry, but Johnson doesn't appear ready to grapple with those.

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Poster: rdenirojb87 Date: Oct 9, 2012 5:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

Lol, I'll be interested to see how much you can restrain youtself in the coming weeks. I'm going to refrain from any political discussion right now, other to say I'm also having a wank along with Matt Drudge :-) I'm pretty amazed at the difference one debate has had (poll-wise, at least). Too many people wait until the debates to decide who they like better. The debates are a game to me, and I can't imagine them ever having an impact on my vote, but it was enjoyable to see Obama struggle in the first one.

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Poster: adks12020 Date: Oct 9, 2012 6:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

There was one poll that showed Romney up by 5 (Pew) and one poll that showed Obama up by 5 (Gallup) so I'm not really sure the polls really mean anything. The fact that those polls are often only samples of about 1,000 people doesn't help their validity either.

As far as too many people waiting until the debates to decide...research has shown that isn't true. There have been a bunch of studies that show people hear what they want to hear from the candidate they aleady support when they watch debates. There are still others that show that debates, despite the hype they get from the media, rarely have a huge influence on voting unless there is a major, major gaffe.

In reality the President and Mr. Romney are fighting for about + or - 5% of the vote right now. The rest of the country is already decided.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Oct 9, 2012 6:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

There was really only one poll that got everyone so excited. Romney will find another way to doom his campaign. Wank while you can.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Oct 9, 2012 5:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

Regarding the final item, not sure about Obama, but Romney was pretty clear that it's his job to not worry about those people.

It probably won't surprise you to learn that I like Sullivan. His writing can be a little over-the-top sometimes, but I find him to be a pretty sensible person. He wears his biases on his sleeve, and, let's be frank, the Republican Party left him, not the other way around.

Let's face it, it must be hard to be a gay Republican these days, as evidenced by your slut shaming of him.

Anyway, I don't see why everyone is freaking out. He lost a debate. Polls move up and down all the time. If you look at the data behind the Pew poll, it notably queried more Republicans than usual (not by design). Give it a week or two. I still think Obama wins handily. Too many self-inflicted wounds for Romney, and Obama suddenly has more money on hand. I don't even think it'll be close.

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Oct 9, 2012 6:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

I wish I had your confidence. It will all boil down to just a few swing states like Ohio, N. Carolina, Virginia and Florida, and if it's really close in Fl. we know how the courts lean. (remember 2000?) Glad I'm not living in OH, I hear they're running over 10 political ads/hour - an absolute deluge of Super PAC money.

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Poster: rdenirojb87 Date: Oct 9, 2012 6:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

"Regarding the final item, not sure about Obama, but Romney was pretty clear that it's his job to not worry about those people."

Then why do both veterans and active duty service members overwhelmingly support Romney?

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Oct 9, 2012 6:32am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

Because those groups lean conservative and have a long time. Some people make bad choices.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Oct 9, 2012 7:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

Actually, it's because we all took an oath to support and defend the Constitution against ALL enemies.

And we know that an undeclared war of terror being waged in Pakistan by the current Administration is the picture definition of Unconstitutional.

Right alongside the picture of "Violation of 1973 War Powers Resolution Act" for our "non-hostile" committment of forces and action in Libya.

Because dropping GBUs, shooting cruise missiles and providing helicopter gunship support isn't hostile if you issue an Executive Order saying so.

Some people make bad choices? Others make worse choices.

Having to choose between Romney and Obama is like having to choose between contracting syphillis or gonorrhea.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Oct 9, 2012 10:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

Like choosing between contracting syphillis or gonorrhea?

I must disagree with you on that comparison. Either implies that you at least had a lot of fun first.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Oct 9, 2012 8:42am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

So is the idea here that Obama is an enemy, or am I misreading your post?

Your gripe about the "undeclared war of terror" and the WPA does nothing to explain why veterans and military members vote Republican. I would actually think that would be something that would make Republicans warm to Obama. Or have the Republicans suddenly turned into international-law-abiding doves ready to cede US authority to international bodies? Educate me..

I don't know about you, but even if I had to choose between syphilis or gonorrhea, I would still make a choice.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Oct 9, 2012 9:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

He signed the National Defense Authorization Act into law on 31 January 2011. You know, the law that allows Americans to be detained indefinitely in violation of the Constitutional right to due process. Why is the left not apoplectic about this? Why are the Occutards not marching on DC? Because as long as they get their free shit, they are quite comfortable having their Constitutional rights stripped from them. Until they aren't.

You tell me.....actually to be fair, I fault Congress even more for allowing the NDAA to be drafted and passed. I flatly reject the "well that section was just very poorly worded" deflection. Rewrite it then to make it crystal clear you assholes.

Also note that nowhere in my post do I refer to Republicans or Democrats. You are both one and the the same. You both support special interests on the backs of the middle class. YOU.ARE.IDENTICAL. Veterans, retirees and Active Duty all know that....

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Oct 9, 2012 9:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

Sorry, I thought we were talking about why vets lean Republican. I guess I was mistaken.

Obama's record is mixed to be sure. Presidents seek to expand presidential power -- that's an organizational interest, not a political one. Congress handed him power and he took it. And no, I don't forgive him for that.

However, Romney frightens me infinitely more than Obama. I feel like I "get" Obama -- whereas I have no idea what drives Mitt Romney. Look, the guy basically wrote off half of the US population, saying that it was his job not to worry about them. At least Obama stands by his record -- is honest about it. Romney doesn't seem to have any principles at all. He'll say anything, do anything, to get elected. Period.

I don't feel like our political system really grants us the luxury of casting a protest vote for the presidency. One of two people will be the next president. Voting for Gary Johnson might make you feel all nice inside, but means nothing.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Oct 9, 2012 10:00am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

Back to the original discussion then.....

From my experience and the people I served with and maintain contact with, vets and Armed Forces tend to lean right because they understand the process (and potential consequences) of committing forces intimately - much more so than the average American. The sense is that historically Republicans seemingly favor the military more. There is a perception that Democrats - being historically anti-war - are at best ambivalent towards veterans or Active Duty. Yes, I realize that that is not necessarily the case. I could point to many examples that support drawing the above conclusions. With a little digging, I could find examples that are 180 degrees out.

What I don't understand is why the average servicemember doesn't seem to understand that both parties exploit the military for their own gains - be they political or financial. Both Repubs and Dems feed at the same Mil Indust Complex feeding trough....it's just that most Dems seem to wear a mask when they belly up.

I don't know what to tell you other than we have been collectively horse fucked by both parties. You may think that a vote for a candidate outside of the two party handicap we have had forced on us is a throwaway that only makes me "feel all nice inside but means nothing", but you couldn't be more wrong.

By accepting the constraints of a a failed two party system you are validating it with your acceptance of two 'for shit' choices. You only need about 10% of a population to "get it" to reach a tipping point of awareness. Once that happens, the exponential function takes over and neither of the two parties will be able to hold the wave back. I'll consider myself lucky if I see it in my lifetime, and until such time as it happens, I will continue to vote for the candidate who aligns best with what I consider the important issues.

That my friend means everything.

Regardless, I still think it's pretty cool that despite our clear differences on where we lie on the political spectrum, we can have this discussion....politely and respectfully. I'd have no problem having this convo face to face over a beer at Devil's Backbone Brewery next Columbus Day weekend at Festy Experience 4.

You just better like IPAs.......

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Oct 9, 2012 11:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

Mmmmm... IPAs.

"You only need about 10% of a population to "get it" to reach a tipping point of awareness. Once that happens, the exponential function takes over and neither of the two parties will be able to hold the wave back."

To this, I would submit two examples:

1) The Tea Party has at times boasted of the support of nearly one in three Americans. I think it's still close to 20%. Why are they not fielding a candidate? Where is the "exponential function" effect?

2) Ross Perot.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Oct 9, 2012 11:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

1) The Tea Party over promised and underperformed. Perhaps 1 in 3 Americans had heard of of the Tea Party, but outright support? Clearly that was not the case. All the blathering from the Bat Fastard Rush Limbaugh notwithstanding.

2) Pulling >10% at a poll is one thing. 10% of an entire population sample set understanding an issue is completely different.

Malcolm Gladwell, author of "Tipping Point" does a much better job of sorting out and explaining the impact of Connectors, Mavens and Salesmen.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Oct 9, 2012 11:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

Around 18% of Americans consider themselves to be supporters of the Tea Party. Something like four in ten voters said they supported the TP movement in 2010 midterm exit polls.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Oct 9, 2012 12:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

But did they understand the issues? That drives change. Cheerleading does not.

If 10% of Americans truly understood the implications of our debt based, fractional reserve monetary system and banking industry there would be a revolution tomorrow. (Parapharsed somewhat from some famous old dead guy)


Instead, "I'll get to it right after I get caught up on Jersey Shore"

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Oct 9, 2012 12:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

Given the issues that seemed to drive support for the Tea Party, I'd say that they most definitely did not understand them. They didn't even understand that those weren't real issues.

Revolutions need leaders, and leaders need ideas that normal people can relate to. I don't see much of that out there right now.

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Poster: Deadhead225 Date: Oct 10, 2012 7:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

Read Creature From Jekyl Island by Griffin (1st edition recommended as it was pre-financial crisis with no opportunity to point to any revisionist history) and Forgotten Man by Amity Shlaes. The combination of these two with Gladwell will be all you will ever need to know about the monetary/political system. Objective historical perspectives that illustrate near identical patterns to modern events. No party, central bank or Govt. can successfully manipulate markets or economic forces. The harder they try the deeper in trouble they get. Once the $ runs short enough things always tend to get worked out. It just means there is fuel for the attempted manipulation. It aint pretty, but it gets worked out.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Oct 11, 2012 7:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

I've read Creature, but not Shales and it's funny, I suppose, I came to a different conclusion about the ability of an unregulated central (debt based) banking system to manipulate the market(s). Perhaps not in the classic sense of bubble creation like Greenspan did, but certainly as spiral consequences of "fiscal policies".

I do agree with you on "It ain't pretty, but it gets worked out."

I just see it more likely that it gets worked out via failed policy and systemic collapse rather than successful policy.

Getcha popcorn ready, it's gonna be an interesting couple of years.

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Poster: deadhead53 Date: Oct 11, 2012 8:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

Hey Mando,

I agree with you on all your topics but I hope it does not come true. Both the Dems and Repubs suck, they both use their base to keep their power but anyway I am writing to thank you for your recomendations when I was in VA beach this summer, they were excellent between you and some others my family and I ate like Kings and Queens and enjoyed our vacation there, so much so that we are planning to come back down next summer. I should have posted this much earlier so I apologize for not doing this sooner and when I got back Football season started (I coach at the HS level) and life became very busy but Thanks again! have a great weekend and let's hope this "gets fixed" but I don't think either Romney or Obama can fix it, I especially think Obama can not! but who knows maybe I am wrong!

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Oct 11, 2012 12:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

Glad you enjoyed the visit. Given enough advance notice we can plan to have a beer or two or a dinner next summer. As long as it's not at the end of July when I will be encamped at FloydFest XII!!

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Poster: deadhead53 Date: Oct 11, 2012 12:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

Sounds like a plan Mando!

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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Oct 10, 2012 6:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

both the dems and the reps love that you, and millions of others, feel this way.
Lets them know that what ever slop they run out there, people will vote for it out of fear of "wasting" their vote on a 3rd party candidate.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Oct 10, 2012 7:12am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

Oh? And just who will you be wasting your vote on this year? Gary "I-won't-take-drones-off-the-table" Johnson? Good luck with that. I used to think the Greens could do it, but I'm not so sure anymore. The system we have is stacked against them. If you want third parties, you'll need to change the system first.

But let's assume for a minute that the system was more amenable to third parties. Even in that case, third parties that do nothing but field weak presidential candidates with no policy ideas and who have no plan for how they would actually govern the country do not interest me. The only way to create a lasting third party movement in this country is to grow it from the ground up. Even the Tea Party -- the closest thing we've had to a TP in recent memory -- basically had no platform except to eliminate all government revenue. Good luck running the show without any money! And even those "ideas" (if you can call them that) have pretty much been absorbed by the Republican Party.

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Oct 10, 2012 7:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

"The only way to create a lasting third party movement in this country is to grow it from the ground up." A difficult achievement, but I agree - the only route here is for the people to rise up and assert their need for a change in the process.

In addition to the limitations to the Tea Party that you noted - I have a real issue with their agenda, the shady "corporate" support, and a barely disguised, ugly racial undertone... tendrils of these issues are interwoven with the Repub party.

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Poster: Edsel Date: Oct 10, 2012 9:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

horse shit, all the ugly racial undertones were coming from liberals accusing them of having racial undertones. I'm no member of the TP, so don't even try to go there.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Oct 10, 2012 9:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire - adding more fuel

Here are some of those ugly, and yet factually-based, accusations.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/14/inge-marler-tea-party-arkansas-leader-racist-joke_n_1597334.html

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/12/12/387451/glenn-beck-suggests-tea-party-is-racist/?mobile=nc

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/04/25/are-tea-partiers-racist.html

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Oct 10, 2012 10:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire - adding more fuel

Whether shit floats or sinks, it's still shit and it still stinks the same.

http://gopcapitalist.tripod.com/democratrecord.html

Robert Byrd or Thomas Sowell?

Yeah, I know, make your sample group small enough and you can prove anything you want to.

Blatant racism exists in both mainstream parties. the Tea Party is no exception, but it is not as widespread as the media would have you believe.

But someone, anyone, please explain to me how Senator Robert Fucking Byrd, D-WV, self-admitted KKK Kleagle, and the party that embraced him as the "conscience of the Senate" got a pass from the media?

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Oct 10, 2012 10:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire - adding more fuel

This isn't about finding one racist among thousands. This is about whether or not it's an organizing principle of the Tea Party. This article cites two studies indicating that it is.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/04/25/are-tea-partiers-racist.html

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Poster: Edsel Date: Oct 10, 2012 11:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire - adding more fuel

"They want to put ya'll back in chains".
Racism and fear mongering at its finest.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Oct 10, 2012 2:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire - adding more fuel

Hooray for our side!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5M_Ttstbgs

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Oct 10, 2012 11:07am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire - adding more fuel

I would need to see the raw data used in the sample set to assess whether or not the two studies could stand up to real academic scrutiny.

My Occam's Razor gut tells me that right or left, the media presents what it wants to, regardless of the facts.

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Poster: user unknown Date: Oct 9, 2012 6:20am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

"For me, the lame part of the Sixties was the political part, the social part. The real part was the spiritual part."
Jerry Garcia


still rings true today

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Oct 9, 2012 8:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Looking for some political fire

Mother Grumble: How much do you feel you should be involved with the society you're living in, that is, contributing to it?

Garcia: Well ... I don't ... there are certain kinds of social obligations which we observe at home, for example, if there's somebody who needs a benefit you know ... we've done benefits for the Black Panthers at various times ... we try not to approach things on that level if we can avoid it because really the one thing we've really got to offer - it's not money, it's definitely not money, it's not even the capacity to earn money - it's the capacity to create good energy. And that's what our real value is ... if any. Socially it'd be groovy to tie that in on a level, well ... for example, let me give you the example that to me was most perfect. That was about two years ago we played in Cincinnati, Ohio and with us there helping out were the Hog Farm. Do you know about the Hog Farm? ... right ... What happened was we played the gig and it was incredibly high and everybody had a real good time ... the following day the Hog Farm people with the help of the local radio station, the FM station ... underground radio ... organised a lot cleaning thing. What they did was they went to a very poor part of town, found an empty lot that people had been dumping garbage in for years and in the space of one day they cleaned out all the garbage in there still on the basis of that initial energy from the concert, you know ... the good thing ... they used the radio to describe to people what was going on, and say we need all the help we can get, we need a couple of trucks, you know and people came right through with it. At the end of the day they left a playground for the kids in the neighbourhood ...

MG: The Hog Farm do that a lot.

Garcia: Right ... so that's the thing of following through with that energy.

MG: There's a lot of spin off energy following the Dead?

Garcia: Right ... and that's the fix ... like our energy is not topical. It doesn't make a political statement, it doesn't make a statement concerning morals or anything like that, it's just good energy ... and good clean energy. And if after that energy has been, you know, flowing then it's a matter of somebody stepping in saying look we've got this good energy, let's move with it, let's go ahead and do something.

MG: And you see that as your involvement in society?

Garcia: Exactly ... and that would be the best way we can relate but as it is we do benefits etc.

MG: You mentioned the Panthers ... I was wondering how much of young people's involvement and affinity to black causes, how much of it do you think relates to their music?

Garcia: I think that if they were to ... unfortunately the black community isn't at all together in the United States, so there's millions of diverse opinions as to what should happen, how it should happen, so forth and so on. So there isn't anything there - for example the middle class white kid who has a social conscience to be able to really grab on to and help out ... really there isn't nothing really that solid. Now, the black scene is going away from the whole violent revolutionary trip and they're concentrating on basically accomplishing one or two things in the community thus gaining community support. Which is really where it's all at anyway ... and away from the ego trip type of ... you know what I mean where the leaders get to be the focus of the thing. That whole Eldridge Cleaver shakedown and all the rest of that stuff was very unfortunate because it took away the focus from the causes and from the real difficulties and put it into a personality cult situation which is really not good. But since then the blacks, the people I know who have been Black Panthers, black revolutionaries, Marxists and so forth have changed their viewpoint toward a more basic, humanistic accomplishment trip. That's like basically ... it looks to me like it's much healthier, because it has to do with really doing things you know, really feeding people and so forth rather than talking and proselytising and that sort of thing.